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Baracus

Arena Season Rewards

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Baracus    11

The arena season awards are rewarded based on your inception to date arena points.  This seems to work well for the first 4 leagues as it allows everyone to occasionally get the best rewards and move up leagues as long as you continue to gain points.  How fast you move up depends on how active you are.  The difference between the top and bottom players in these leagues isn't insurmountable since the top players move up to the next league at the end of the season.

The problem is is that once you get to the 5th/last league, the players with the most inception to date points don't move up to a new league at the end of the season and they start the next season with a huge lead.  This doesn't reward players for being active successful attackers. It rewards players who downloaded the game first.  Some players have such a huge lead  that they don't even need to attack in a season to get the best rewards (top 3 positions) at the end of a season.

It it will be difficult to attract and keep new players if they have a huge disadvantage compared to old players. My suggestion is that the awards in the last league be based on the points scored in that season.

Edited by Baracus
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ZeroByDivide    34

Not true. It literally took me one season to go from 3000 to 10000. 

Also, yes, we do need to be active and attacking. The players above 10000 are not a joke. To them, there are no such thing as a good defense, and they just roast you up within an hour. The rankings frquently change, and in the last season i was in the top tier with 1 hour left, beating others by a fairly decent amount, then i checked today and my final rank was 4.

I know there are quite a lot of factors that does the opposite of promoting attacking. But if you want to get higher, it wouldn't be too hard to catch up with the competitive range. Happy gaming :)

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Baracus    11

So you think it is a good idea that someone could have a 5000+ deficit to make up at the beginning of a season?  Season rewards based on points from that season makes much more sense.  Why wouldn't you support that?  If you like this game and want it to thrive and be supported by its devs, you'd be in favor of a reward system that rewards good active attackers, not just how long ago someone downloaded the game.

And you didn't gain 7000 points in one season. Stop. 

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ZeroByDivide    34

???

Why are you so offensive all of a sudden???

I was just telling you that it's not really only about how long you've been playing. I was telling you being active also gets you up the ranking, even if it does take some time.

As a developer, I tell you developers don't only want players who are currently active. They want long-running players too. How much they value those two may differ for every developer, but it is really stupid to only support one.

And how do you know if i didn't get up in one season? It is surely possible to gain 7000 in one season, since with the score as low as that, there is always a player that gives you +20 for beating.

Do you want to do the maths? Or do you need an assist for the additions?

Edited by ZeroByDivide

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Baracus    11

Not sure what's offensive about my reply to you. Yes, please explain your math.  How many seasons have you participated in?

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ZeroByDivide    34

I'll assume you're able to get 3 stars of every defense, because everyone seems to be able to in the mid-low tier. Getting 3 stars on +20 reward gives you 60.

Let's assume the energy for Arena doesn't refresh. You are able to refresh 5 at a time using 5 Gems. So 1 energy = 1 gem.

7000÷60=116+2/3

Since you can only refresh energy in groups of 5, using 115 gives you maximum of 6900 with the assumptions above.

I did farm up more than 200 gems by not spending it to buy items, and without spending any money. But I will assume only around 100 gems will be spent. That is 6000 coins.

Up to this point I assumed the energy doesn't refresh on its own. But that is not true, so now let's take that into account.

I believe you get 1 energy every 20 minutes. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one. I've never read any official statement on the refresh interval. If I'm correct it takes you 100 minutes, or 1h40min to fully recharge.

One season is 3 or 4 days long. I could use the 4 days, but even 3 days will work so I'll use it. 

I'll assume each run takes 2min30s, which is the max time allowed. Roughly, 115×2.5min=287.5min=4h47min30s. 3 days make it roughly 1h36min/day. You need to do about 38.3 runs per day.

Say you do 35 runs using gems. That takes 1h27min30s. Assuming you only used the gems when you had 0 energy, you would have had bonus 4~5 runs that refreshed on its own, since it's nearly been 1h40min. That is 40 runs, taking roughly 1h42min30s, with about 2min30s of inactivity. Doing this for 3 days: 105 gems, 120 runs.

Spending 105 gems and roughly 1h45min per day for the short season of 3 days gets you 120 runs. 

Now I'll assume you have 12 hours of complete inactivity per day. That is 12 hours per day that you can come back for 5 runs which takes approx. 12min30s. Take away the 1h45min, or round up to 2 hours you used to do the 40 runs. You have extra 10h=600min per day. Refresh rate is 100min. 6 sets of 5 runs. Or, let's say you even missed out on 2 sets. 4 sets of 5 runs, 20 runs. 3 days totalling 60 runs, adds to the 120 to make it 180 runs.

Okay, 180×60=10800. Let's say your success rate is only 67%. That is 120 runs. 120×60=7200.

 

7200 coins in a short season arena, using 105 gems, having 12 hours of complete inactivity per day, having a total of 2h30mins of play time per day, having only 67% of success run rate, missing out on 2 sets of 5 runs.

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Baracus    11

Congrats on coming up with that unrealistic scenario but the question is if YOU gained 7000 in a season like you stated. You didn't answer my question about how many seasons YOU have participated in. At minimum, you have done 6 seasons (1 per league and at least one more since this last season wasn't your first in the max league).  From your picture you have about 11500.  Are you saying that YOU got 7000 in one season and an average of less than 1000 in the others you've played?  I'm guessing you've actually done at least 10 seasons which means you have one 7000 season and you averaged 500 in your other seasons.   You're sticking with that story?

I won't respond to you anymore unless you'd like to discuss the point of this thread... In my opinion, season awards should be rewarded based on seasonal points not inception to date points which too heavily favors when someone downloaded the game instead of their skill and current activity level. 

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ZeroByDivide    34

How can one be so dense. "unrealistic scenario"? kek. I bet you couldn't follow the calculations at all. I knew you couldn't, so I wrote a summary at the end, but you can't even understand that either. If you think my calculations are unrealistic, don't just throw in statements; back it up.

I did not count how many seasons I played, but say you're right, that I played at minimum 6 seasons. 

Haha, so you expect me to get another 7000 points in one season? How? Pfff there is no one far above me to provide me +20 points per run, except those players with 15000+, and my points and their points differ by 3000+, which is I believe the matchmaking difference limit - I don't get matched with them. 

Do you think you're playing in a competitive group? Haha nope. The "active players" who really play competitive in the arena have 10000+ points, and as I said they are really competitive. If you gain points, they will take points from you. I wouldn't get (2~5)×3 points to be revenged for -20 points. I can do the basic maths. You need to be playing frequently to even keep your points stay still, let alone farming up points.

 

I was on topic, but you are just not reading it. I said I disagree with your suggestion. Developers want players who are active, but they also value players who are long-running. Players don't like playing games that they have to be constantly playing to survive. Robocide is not a one-time match game like StarCraft - you have levels, upgradeable units, guild systems, guild reputations, PvP system, PvP points, etc. How do those games work? The more you play (or the more you pay in many games), the stronger you get. Skills are required in any type of games by default. 

Let me put it this way. Stronger bots and titans mean stronger defense/offense, right? How do you get stronger bots and titans? From the recent update, it killed the income system. So now it's even more about how longer you play, to get stronger forces. Your titans and bots do not reset every season. Why the points?

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Cupid Stunt    29

Sorry baracus, but i have to vouch for zero here. I'm at 5000 points and i haven't really tried. I'm sure if i spent my gems and metal on more energy instead of titans and skipping to the higher point fights i'd at least be around the 9000 area. 

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Baracus    11

A 4000 jump in one season would be challenging but possible. It's 7000 that is unrealistic.  What zero forgot in his scenario is that you lose points on defense in a season and that you don't get 20 point options every time you attack. You can keep skipping but that costs metal and time.

The point of this thread isn't the 7000 though.  Cupid, you are 6000+ points behind the 11000 point players (10000 behind the 15000 players).  You have an extremely small chance at getting top rewards in upcoming seasons even if you spend money and get the 4000 points you say you can get. Do you think that it is good for the game?  Maybe you do.  Or would it make for a better game if all players in the top league started the season evenly and current season success determined rewards?  And keep in mind that future players will have an even larger deficit to overcome if no changes are made to the structure of the top league.

 

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ZeroByDivide    34
8 hours ago, Baracus said:

A 4000 jump in one season would be challenging but possible. It's 7000 that is unrealistic.  

Please, provide evidence to back up your statement. Otherwise it becomes just a pointless argument.

8 hours ago, Baracus said:

What zero forgot in his scenario is that you lose points on defense in a season and that you don't get 20 point options every time you attack. You can keep skipping but that costs metal and time.

I think you just completely skipped my calculations. Even the summary. It reads:

22 hours ago, ZeroByDivide said:

7200 coins in a short season arena, using 105 gems, having 12 hours of complete inactivity per day, having a total of 2h30mins of play time per day, having only 67% of success run rate, missing out on 2 sets of 5 runs.

67% of success rate. That is extremely low. Number of stars taken doesn't matter in losing points, so 20 is the maximum taken away. 1 run makes up for 3 of the worst cases of -20. The mid-low zone isn't competitive and is really populated, so I rarely saw anyone attacking my defense. Skipping costs time? like 5 sec per skip. How much would that add to the 2h30mins of game play time. 

8 hours ago, Baracus said:

 You have an extremely small chance at getting top rewards in upcoming seasons even if you spend money and get the 4000 points you say you can get. Do you think that it is good for the game?  

Extremely small chance? Are you saying Cupid lacks the skills to beat the 20-rewarding defenses? He is even capable of setting up defenses that are difficult to beat.

8 hours ago, Baracus said:

Or would it make for a better game if all players in the top league started the season evenly and current season success determined rewards?  And keep in mind that future players will have an even larger deficit to overcome if no changes are made to the structure of the top league.

Just note that you don't have to get in the top 3 of the top league. Again, this is a game with a levelling system, and a points system. Longer dedication needs an advantage, and currently the only advantage is the Arena points. Also note that new players start in the first league. They don't just come and say "oh look those players are waaayy above me and I cant be in the top". They are encouraged to advance to the next league, for 4 times, and it's fairly easy. When I first joined the game (wasn't even long ago) and was looking through the Alliances leaderboard, I was like "oh wow how do people even get 10000+ points?". When I first joined the top league, and I recall I was rank 23 or something, (around 3000~4000), I decided that I can't go up anymore, and that is when I actually decided to pause the arena for a while and focus on upgrading my titans. It shows how the game is well set up. Because once you get up to the top zone you don't get time to upgrade your titans; you have to spend all your game time on the arena. 

 

I do like the current 'structure' of the Arena (not some systems however). It isn't wise to destroy the current structure. However you do have your own point. It would be more viable if a new system is added, that works the way you described. That adds more content to the game, while encouraging new players even more as well. 

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Baracus    11

Can we move past it he 7000?  You didn't do it in a season like you initially stated and i don't think it is realistic.  You think it is doable.  Done. 

The topic of this thread is the rewards in the top league.  I think it would be better if rewards were based on seasonal success. You think the rewards should be based on inception to date points.  Let's see what the rest of the community thinks. 

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ZeroByDivide    34

Let me put it this way for you so you can try to at least understand.

I got to the 10000+ zone. If you're skilled enough, you can do it too.

If the current structure is destroyed, to become as you described, the game is only valuing the temporary active players, and not rewarding long-running dedicated players. If you ever studied about programming and developing games, you know that is plain stupid. Numerous games died like that.

If you want the structure you're describing, adding it as a new content would be appropriate.

 

I don't know how many times I've said these. @KEEF what are your thoughts?

Edited by ZeroByDivide

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ZeroByDivide    34

Also since you're saying we need to move on from "the 7000".

You are the one who's terribly missing the point. 7000 is not the point. It's the fact that I climbed up. Are you gonna argue that I didn't?

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KEEF    96

Hi Guys! 

All of these are valid points and we are actually working on it. 

Yesterday we pushed a new update (which will be available probably early next week) and it includes better scoring options for the 5th League. We are sure that this will improve the experience on higher level but still we know that we can improve it even more. 

We are thinking of making some more improvements on the high level part of the game and the PvP is our priority. 

I'll keep you posted!

 

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On 11 April 2016 at 9:32 AM, Baracus said:

The arena season awards are rewarded based on your inception to date arena points.  This seems to work well for the first 4 leagues as it allows everyone to occasionally get the best rewards and move up leagues as long as you continue to gain points.  How fast you move up depends on how active you are.  The difference between the top and bottom players in these leagues isn't insurmountable since the top players move up to the next league at the end of the season.

The problem is is that once you get to the 5th/last league, the players with the most inception to date points don't move up to a new league at the end of the season and they start the next season with a huge lead.  This doesn't reward players for being active successful attackers. It rewards players who downloaded the game first.  Some players have such a huge lead  that they don't even need to attack in a season to get the best rewards (top 3 positions) at the end of a season.

It it will be difficult to attract and keep new players if they have a huge disadvantage compared to old players. My suggestion is that the awards in the last league be based on the points scored in that season.

Totally agree. I spent the last three seasons in the second last league near the top of the list and only had to do maintenance attacking to stay a few points above the 4th ranked player.

now I'm in the top league the top three players are over 10k points and can stay at the top without having to do much.

I have a full time job and a family and still manage to play quite often (sorry family) but have no hope of tripling my score for st least 4 seasons to catch up. By that time everyone else will also improve their score drastically.

 

its a good idea to make it more fair.

 

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22 minutes ago, PlacentaJuan said:

top three players are over 10k points and can stay at the top without having to do much.

bruhhhhhh

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32 minutes ago, PlacentaJuan said:

top three players are over 10k points and can stay at the top without having to do much.

Try maintaining your points yourself when you're one of the "top three"

Did you know that there are multiple leagues with the same tier? There are way more players with 10k or more points than you see, and they all go for each other. Maintaining your points trying to stay in top 3 is not as easy as you think.

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4 hours ago, Guest said:

Try maintaining your points yourself when you're one of the "top three"

Did you know that there are multiple leagues with the same tier? There are way more players with 10k or more points than you see, and they all go for each other. Maintaining your points trying to stay in top 3 is not as easy as you think.

Thanks "guest"

i know there are multiple tiers, so.....? You don't have to maintain points with anyone not in your tier so don't see how that comment it relevant. 

Also I have maintained the top three with just minor attacks on 20 point players just to stay there, as I said in my post you quoted. 

 

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ZeroByDivide    34
2 hours ago, PlacentaJuan said:

You don't have to maintain points with anyone not in your tier so don't see how that comment it relevant. 

lol

Be one of us 10000+ to say that. You say you don't need to worry about players not in the same league in the current season? Haha. What about the next season? You have to make up for the huge gap. You know there are a lot of players over 10000, and you need to be extremely lucky to be the only one in the league with 10000+ points for a season. You are contradicting yourself by saying that. I never knew that "without having to do much" means struggling to maintain your points every hour.

2 hours ago, PlacentaJuan said:

Also I have maintained the top three with just minor attacks on 20 point players just to stay there, as I said in my post you quoted.

You have maintained the top three? You mean you have been in the top three? You know you're in the same league as I and you are currently rank 15 with 5419 points. 

Seriously. Don't even expect to maintain your position with those "minor" attacks. Also you don't even get the "20 point players" you mentioned, if you're 11000~12000.

 

I don't know why you guys are just trying to argue without any valid evidence or explanations to back your statements up. Firstly Baracus totally misses my point that you can climb up to the top, and starts talking about the possibility to gain 7000 points. Secondly you come up and say the top tier players don't even need to try hard to maintain their positions, without even being one yourself. 

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Baracus    11

It's really quite simple zero. There isn't a need to argue about "valid evidence".  Either you believe that rewards in the top league should be based on current season success or you believe that inception to date points should decide the winners.

Your opinion and my opinion are clear.  Let's see what others have to say. 

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ZeroByDivide    34
5 hours ago, Baracus said:

There isn't a need to argue about "valid evidence".

Life advice: please try to refrain yourself from saying that ever in the future.

5 hours ago, Baracus said:

Either you believe that rewards in the top league should be based on current season success or you believe that inception to date points should decide the winners.

Baracus, we aren't those little primary school kids arguing (or are you?). 

You don't just throw in your statements without stating the reason and evidence. That's how it works in actual life. What I quoted are just our statements, no reason or required evidence to convince anyone or prove anything. 

5 hours ago, Baracus said:

Your opinion and my opinion are clear.

Yes, our opinions are goddamn clear. But it seems like your opinion but nothing else is clear from you. I have stated my reasons for my opinion clearly, which overrode your statement in your first post. Now you're not even trying to convince me or others with reasons. Convincing others is the way to "win" an argument. Not saying "No i'm right let's hear what others say! Majority rule!".

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ZeroByDivide    34

To make things even clear, I'll go through sentence by sentence of your original post.

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

The arena season awards are rewarded based on your inception to date arena points.

This is a fact.

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

This seems to work well for the first 4 leagues as it allows everyone to occasionally get the best rewards and move up leagues as long as you continue to gain points.

This is a statement. No evidence is provided to back it up, but it is implicitly agreed. 

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

How fast you move up depends on how active you are.

Another statement. Partially true, but not quite. It also depends on your skills. You can be really active but fail to beat any defense. But whether this is fully true or partially true doesn't matter. The statement is counted even if it's partially true.

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

The difference between the top and bottom players in these leagues isn't insurmountable since the top players move up to the next league at the end of the season.

This is a statement said like a fact. It depends on an individual's interpretation of "insurmountable". The part after "since" is a fact.

We're not onto your main opinion yet.

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

The problem is is that once you get to the 5th/last league, the players with the most inception to date points don't move up to a new league at the end of the season and they start the next season with a huge lead.

This is a fact, except the "huge lead" part. Again there is no implicit standard for the word "huge". For example, you think it is a huge gap that you can't catch up to. I don't, and I did catch up.

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

This doesn't reward players for being active successful attackers.

This is a statement. And I stated that this is a false statement. I was active and successful, and currently I have 13071 points. 

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

It rewards players who downloaded the game first.

This is a statement. And I stated that this is a very misleading statement. As I repeatedly said, developers are supposed to value dedicated long-running active players, and people who downloaded it much earlier than anyone, and still playing, are considered very dedicated, and are valued. They are meant to be rewareded in game. However another thing that makes this statement very misleading is as I said above you can be included in that group even if you didn't download the game early. Being "active and successful" does get you up. 13071, you thought only beta players get that much point, didn't you? Poke007 right now (who's climbing up with me) has 13348 points. 

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

Some players have such a huge lead  that they don't even need to attack in a season to get the best rewards (top 3 positions) at the end of a season.

I already said multiple times that this statement is false. At this point maintaining your points is I say 10 times harder than climbing up to 10K+. (Just in case you start arguing about the "10 times", it is not an accurate calculation.) Refer to my post 3 above this one. 

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

It it will be difficult to attract and keep new players if they have a huge disadvantage compared to old players.

Did you really just forget there are 4 lower leagues before the top? "new players" start from the bottom, and it is, really, too easy to climb up to the top league. That is enough to attract new players. They don't feel the "disadvantage" until at minimum of 4 seasons later, which is 2 weeks. 2 weeks (without counting the time before you're able to enter the arena) I tell you is long enough to introduce the contents of the game to hook people in. 

On 4/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, Baracus said:

My suggestion is that the awards in the last league be based on the points scored in that season.

This is your request, and your final opinion.

 

I think I did enough. If you still try to push your opinion through without backing up, I don't see the point to continue. 

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Baracus    11
1 hour ago, ZeroByDivide said:

I think I did enough. If you still try to push your opinion through without backing up, I don't see the point to continue. 

Yes, you certainly did enough.  Your OPINION is clear.

This is a game. We are not trying a case in front of a jury.  Our OPINIONS have been stated.

I'm eager to see the changes KEEF mentioned. Apparently the devs realized the top league's structure wasn't ideal too. 

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KEEF    96

Hey guys keep it friendly. 

We are all reading your thoughts and we are all happy to quickly address issues with the game and try to make it better.  

Just don't get upset over someone else's opinion. 

Much love from the Robocide team.

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